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GegaBit
Posts:3311
Senior member
Member since: 2006-11-30
:: Quote ::
Subject: Blocking low paying advertisers
I think we have enough AdSense heavyweights down here to give an educated opinion on who are likley to be very low paying advertisers, also our resident arb crew, your insight is appreciated, I'll throw in some names, please vote on them and add some yourself too.

This discussion is strictly about listing probable low paying advertisers.

yahoo.com
shopping.com
ebay.com
ebay.co.uk
monster.com
monstermarketplace.com
tripadvisor.com
alibaba.com
ask.com
wisegeek.com
info.com
business.com
July 12, 2007 10:28PM
nitrous
Posts:730
Senior member
Member since: 2006-11-30
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
I have all of those filtered other than

Yahoo (thought about it though a lot)
ebay.all because no room and because I seldom see them
tripadvisor because I never saw it and have no idea how/what it does.

The rest are all fleas.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2007 10:41PM by nitrous.
July 12, 2007 10:41PM
GegaBit
Posts:3311
Senior member
Member since: 2006-11-30
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
Yahoo ads land you on a pre-filled yahoo search results page (pathetic) and a large sponsored ads box then some search results..

tripadvisor don't serve in your face ads but I've been suspecting them having a low paying deal with Google.
July 12, 2007 10:56PM
nitrous
Posts:730
Senior member
Member since: 2006-11-30
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
Well I already have 200 and another 50 that I cant add so I am screwed anyway!
July 12, 2007 11:00PM
Harold
Posts:2494
Senior member
Member since: 2006-11-30
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
GB, Thanks for starting this thread. I have some of those in my filter on the basis of a high Uselessness Factor. I don't have the volume to even make guesses about who the low-paying advertisers are, but I'll watch this with interest.

I have plenty of room in my filter and I might just throw the final list in and see what happens.
July 13, 2007 12:29AM
GegaBit
Posts:3311
Senior member
Member since: 2006-11-30
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
none of us has enough data to assert with certainty who pays how much, it is just that sometimes some of us block one of those and sees a noticeable increase in earnings. The most intriguing for me is tripadvisor.com, was never able to measure its contribution to my earnings, they use the api to match a very broad number of keywords, and certainly they are large enough to get a big discount from Google..
July 13, 2007 12:53AM
Pengi
Posts:3345
Senior member
Member since: 2006-12-17
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
I'd tell you what's in my filter - but I don't have access to one anymore. Cry

All your list would be candidates, but I only added them as I saw them appear on my pages (or they showed up on the preview tool).
July 13, 2007 08:37AM
Car Guy
Posts:422
Preferred member
Member since: 2006-11-30
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
bestringtonesever.com
besttones4u.com
easycellrings.com
ringringmobile.com
ringtone-street.com
sendtheringtones.com
tonetunes4u.com

ebay.ca
ebay.com
ebay.de
ebay.se
ebay.uk

yahoo.ca
yahoo.com
yahoo.de
yahoo.se
yahoo.uk
July 13, 2007 08:48AM
Troi
Posts:4431
Senior member
Member since: 2006-11-30
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
I just want to point out - I know nitrous...... - that certain of you - perhaps just the one winking smiley would have placed one of my sites in your filter list.

I was paying over 1 a click for some of these pages - so if your aim is to get rid of low paying ads - this isn't necessarily the right way to go about it.

However - if end-user experience is your aim, then filter away.

It always amazes me that the conversations re the filter list aren't split into two.

It is my understanding from reading numerous posts - that the main reason for placing ads in the filter list is to get better paying ads. Whether you admit it or not - this is how I see it.

If, for example, ebay ads were paying 2 a click - would you still filter it? I know nitrous is an absolute exception here - and I know how strongly most of you feel - rightly so - about MFA/Arb/Affiliate sites. I'm merely pointing out that not all of these sites are only paying pennies for clicks.

There are numerous examples I could give of pages where I am paying a lot more than 1 a click at the moment - because I have affiliate products that convert well, and pay out well. Don't assume that the affiliate sites pay nothing - simply not the case.

I would also argue that although Nitrous doesn't agree - there is a place for affiliate sites - they do and can provide a good user experience. Filtering on this criteria could cost you. Think carefully. Sure filter the MFA - especially in low paying niches, and certainly for end-user experience.
July 13, 2007 09:05AM
DamonHD
Posts:6158
Moderator
Member since: 2006-11-30
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
I block almost entirely based on user experience, ie if the ads look crappy and stupid, or if the ads they go to look crappy and stupid, or might be grossly inappropriate for my audience.

That's why ebay.* is is the can for me, and a site or two whose owner declared on WW that ethics were optional. I may add Y!.* too.

I have never yet tried to second-guess G's pricing scheme!

Rgds

Damon
July 13, 2007 09:43AM
GegaBit
Posts:3311
Senior member
Member since: 2006-11-30
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
So do I, but if I know of an advertiser that is dragging down my EPC, I will block them, I am not running a charity and my visitors will not suffer with one less advertiser.
July 13, 2007 11:07AM
nitrous
Posts:730
Senior member
Member since: 2006-11-30
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
I am not filtering ebay!
July 13, 2007 11:26AM
Troi
Posts:4431
Senior member
Member since: 2006-11-30
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
Your joking right? I was acutally using ebay as an example to make a point. I always blocked all ebay ads - as I truely believe that "find dead cats on ebay now" is total trash.

My point was that in general people are using the filter to increase revenue. They believe that filtering out the crap is achieving this - and I agree to a large extent. But my point is that it is quite often the affiliate sites that are paying a reasonable amount a click - and that by filtering thee out you could infact be losing revenue.

User experience - I agree - should be important. Ridding the net of MFA sites - I'm in agreement with. My point is that the filter, in the main, is not used as a means of ridding the net of the rubbish, most people use it to increase their revenue.

If you had a blinding site showing up continuiously on your site - that gave a really good landing page, but only paid you 1p a click - I reckon a lot of people would filter it. If the second ad shwing was not such a good site - but perhaps OK, paid 50p a click, I don't doubt that the bulk of people would dosh the first in preference for having the second.

I'm sure there are those in here that will disagree - but I am talking about the bulk of people. Their aim at the end of the day is to make that advertising spot pay money - else what is the point in having it. You may as well just provide a list of hand-selected links pointing to sites that you feel are top drawer.
July 13, 2007 11:39AM
nitrous
Posts:730
Senior member
Member since: 2006-11-30
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
That scenario is supposed to be controlled by google. The low paying ad gets less showing and the best paying ad gets shown on your pages. So there isnt a need to filter it google are already doing this for you. Thats the nature of an auction.

However even if an mfa/arb site paid a dollar a click (which they cant do because they would lose money) I would always filter them as should everyone because they will in the end be the thing that brings down the click through, confidence in the system by both users and advertisers.

Affilliates I have tried blocking, and leaving for a month at a time. They too must be buying cheaper than real product selling advertisers since they always bring my income down by a large margin when I dont filter them. You have to be selective here though. An affiliate selling combined harvesters or submarines probably can afford a large cost per click!

PS and reason for edit - I dont filter ebay because a)buy new and used dead bodies on ebay has largely been sorted. And b)because they DO spend a fair bit according to an insider per click. And because they are actually selling a service. And because there are bigger scammers and other worthless arb sites already filling my filter!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2007 02:19PM by nitrous.
July 13, 2007 02:12PM
GegaBit
Posts:3311
Senior member
Member since: 2006-11-30
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
anyone else with insight on low paying advertisers?
July 13, 2007 02:22PM
Pengi
Posts:3345
Senior member
Member since: 2006-12-17
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
I try to filter on the basis of what I expect the site to be bidding.

If I see a well constructed arb site that is covering a niche I know to be a good earner, then as Troi has indicated above, it is quite possible that they are paying well for clicks.

If I see a poor quality MFA site with a variety of poorly matched and poorly performing ads, then I would expect them to be paying rock bottom prices (or they'd go bust quickly).
July 13, 2007 04:33PM
Troi
Posts:4431
Senior member
Member since: 2006-11-30
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
OK - the thing is, in Adwords, you are often rewarded by having a great site by paying little per click. The new QS in adwords does mean the the less good sites are forced to pay more. This has the effect of making it unviable for some of the absolute click arb sites to continue with adwords - so theoretically they are diminishing.

However - they can still get away with paying small amounts for content clicks - ie your adsense ads.

The great sites - can be rewarded in adwords so instead of having to pay - say 50p a click, they can remain at the same position with their "Great" quality score, for say 3p a click.

I would imagine that there will be another big Adwords hit in say the middle of August - as I reckon Adwords works on a rough 3 month cycle. This could be another big swipe for the rubbish sites - but could also see an increase in the rubbish sites that have just added a bit of copied content to try and sqeeze back in.
July 13, 2007 05:24PM
James
Posts:1757
Moderator
Member since: 2006-11-29
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
Quote:
I truely believe that "find dead cats on ebay now" is total trash.

NOT blocking Ebay??? Oy Vay!

I blocked them years ago - long before MFA/ARB became a hot potato when I saw an ad for "New and used vasectomy reversals". It didn't take a lot of intelligence to know that this wasn't going to pay well.
July 13, 2007 08:20PM
James
Posts:1757
Moderator
Member since: 2006-11-29
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
Addendum:-

I don't block directly for cost. I block for user experience. IE if the ad is a good fit for the site then as long as it's not MFA, relevant to visitors it can stay. I believe that these are probably the best paying ads anyway. Most of my filter is best10, top3 and all that malarkey.
July 13, 2007 08:22PM
nitrous
Posts:730
Senior member
Member since: 2006-11-30
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
>>> Most of my filter is best10, top3 and all that malarkey.

I filter in order of importance:

a)any site with adsense on it on the basis that I dont want to share the advertisers revenue with them thank you very much! We dont need another layer and its bad for users future adsense confidence. They are MY competition with the same ads as me too.

b)the majority of my filter is arb where they use adwords>other (overture?) on the basis that its bad for users (same as a)and they are most likely paying peanuts as well. But they ARE now adding real revenue INTO the system rather than taking some out. This means more for me! But I hate the effect it will have on the network rather strongly.

c) sites that are email harvesting, affiliates (as b here). If affiliates are selling a very high value well paying large profit item they may be paying well so I check them out a little more carefully. + shop.com, comparrison sites etc.
July 13, 2007 08:56PM
nitrous
Posts:730
Senior member
Member since: 2006-11-30
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
OK since adwords>other arb sites are actually putting money into the system and thats now most of them I am going to try 3 or 4 day experiment. I have cleared the filter (again to refill it!) and will only add sites that are taking from the adsense pool. Ie will only add adwords>adsense to the filter.

I will spend 3 days hunting all arbs down anyway so I can add them later. Lets see what happens... I suspect that ecpm will tank as usual but there have been lots of big related changes including advertiser reports/quality score/bannings etc so we will see!

It still gives a crappy user experience though so unless my income doubles I am going to go back and filter them in the end anyway!

Google seem happy to have adwords>other and advised all of us to empty the filter didnt they...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2007 09:26PM by nitrous.
July 13, 2007 09:23PM
spanner
Posts:138
Full member
Member since: 2007-06-12
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
hmmmm...

For years I went with blocking adverts and for a while it seemed to work.

This site was a big inspiration

[www.johnchow.com]

and I got my lists from [www.adsblacklist.com]

But it seems illogical, as as someone said above, Google limits the low payers by showing adverts in order of price paid.

So I deleted them all....

don't see any income differences.

I do delete by topic, such as ringtones, and ebay, trying tos econd guess what people would like to click on.
July 14, 2007 02:03AM
nitrous
Posts:730
Senior member
Member since: 2006-11-30
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
Well so far the ecpm has dived to an all time low as I check now when back from the pub! Well we will see...
July 14, 2007 02:09AM
spanner
Posts:138
Full member
Member since: 2007-06-12
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
I can honestly say that this month has bee the worst in years, with my daily average down by about 1/3.

I think more beer would improve things ....
July 14, 2007 04:05AM
Harold
Posts:2494
Senior member
Member since: 2006-11-30
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
Thanks for posting this, spanner. It's comforting to know that I'm not the only one.

Harold

spanner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can honestly say that this month has bee the
> worst in years, with my daily average down by
> about 1/3.
>
> I think more beer would improve things ....
July 14, 2007 05:21AM
nitrous
Posts:730
Senior member
Member since: 2006-11-30
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
Its morning and emptying the filter resulted in the lowest day since the last time I tried it! So much for the google algo displaying the best paying ads... Still a few days to go!
July 14, 2007 07:56AM
nitrous
Posts:730
Senior member
Member since: 2006-11-30
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
Harold, it could be this...

[motorcyclestires.info]

This one above is a parked domain. Its supposed to be type in traffic only right? MANY of the banned adsense arb sites just use a domain park such as this and continue buying traffic on adwords. the domain park pays them I think. I dont know but I think that domain parked pages are big companies with special deals that circumvent the landing page issue. Or it does not apply to them.

[dieselperfor-mance.com]

Because of sites like the one above. This pays pennies because the landing page quality is deemed "good" by the algo... No ads. It like thousands of others changed its landing page recently.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2007 08:21AM by nitrous.
July 14, 2007 08:19AM
Pengi
Posts:3345
Senior member
Member since: 2006-12-17
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
Quote:
Google limits the low payers by showing adverts in order of price paid.

This is true and it is clear how it operates on the "Search Network".

It is far less clear (to me at least) how this works for AdWords customers on the "Content Network" i.e. the AdSense ads that appear on your pages.

Let me explain:
In AdWords, on a given keyword I bid, say, 20p on both the Search and Content networks. This achieves an average ranking of, say, 25th on the Search network and 7th on the Content network. [In practice, for competitive keywords, the ranking on the Search network will be much lower than this, but the ranking on the Content network will be higher.]

Now a ranking on the Search network of 25th means that for the, average search on the keyword concerned, my Ad will appear about half way down the right hand side of the 3rd Page of search results.

But what does a ranking of 7th mean in terms of when and where my ad appears on the Content network? I'm sure it doesn't mean that 6 other ads are showing ahead of me on every page my ad appears on?

The point I'm trying to get to is that the assumption that Google presents the best paying Ads first, on each and every page they appear on, just cannot be valid. My guess is that the rankings work out across the entire network, but any given page may pick up, randomly, a low ranking ad.
July 14, 2007 12:22PM
Harold
Posts:2494
Senior member
Member since: 2006-11-30
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
Pengi, I think that Google does try out NEW ads that may not at first rank well, but I don't see any evidence on my site that they randomly throw in low-ranked ads with established performance levels. Why would they? They stand to lose money if they do. I have at most five ads per page in one block and I see the same advertisers over and over, except on a few pages which don't have a strong keyword focus....

Also, isn't the rank a function of both CTR and payout? A 20 cent ad with a 10 % CTR will appear above a 50 cent ad with a 2% CTR.

nitrous, I wish it was that simple. My dropoff seems to be largely due to a CTR decline, not eCPM, and I'm not seeing many sites like those. I also haven't done a systematic look at the ads I'm getting, and maybe I need to. Or maybe a rethink in approach as part of my overall site redesign is what's needed. Anyway, back to work...
July 14, 2007 07:20PM
nitrous
Posts:730
Senior member
Member since: 2006-11-30
:: Quote ::
Subject: Re: Blocking low paying advertisers
a) I think you are too worried about the type of in your face ads that I sent on my template by email. That layout would double or quadruple your income if used on every page and I would bet a whole dollar on it...

b) Everyone has suffered a fall in click through over the long term because people both now "know" they are ads! Before they hadnt realised and because the user experience with all the garbage ads has been bad. My own GF wont click on one any more because she says they are all rubbish and go to pages of more ads etc.

They have to see them (hot spot) to be able to read them and click on them. But it should be clear that they are ads or your advertiser wont like you!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2007 08:40PM by nitrous.
July 14, 2007 08:37PM
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